Warhammer Fantasy Battle Reporter Forum

What do you expect would be the likely changes and indeed the most desirable changes to a new Bretonnian Army book .

One for the Bret masters !

Lets see:

Knights will be more expensive

No Ward Saves for the entire mounted portion

Pegasus Knights will be less ridiculous

In the Wedge formation only the first two ranks can attack

There will be no magic item that takes away rank bonuses

The whole army won't be magical

All knights will be rare choices. ALL KNIGHTS

If those changes happen, the next Brettonian book will be so amazing, and fair and balanced, GW can use it as an example of their crowning achievment

this is what i see

after the redicuousely low price of marauders, bowmen and men at arms will be reduced by 1 to 2 pts a model. The royal air force will still be there, this is due to marketing since they released the air force as the 25th anniversery box. Grail Knights will get a little boost. The lance will be changed, not sure how. They will get a new rare choice. Questing Knights will be upgraded somehow, maybe like a new special 2h horse weapon that grants +2 strength in all rounds of combat. These are some of the overpowered things i think will happen after seeing the trend in the current book releases.

I would ROFLMAO if they increased the points cost of M@A, but I can't see it happening. I'd expect something with the profile of a goblin or Skaven slave to have the same kind of price tag.

I'd like to see a stats increase for Men At Arms myself.

I don't think knights will go up in price. First, the QK are being blatantly ignored by most list builds because of the mounted GW nerf. Why raise the price of something noone's taking anyway? And since the recent trend has been to make armies larger, I actually the core knights to get a little cheaper. Grail Knights will either dramatically increase in strength for a minor to moderate points increase, or have a moderate points drop.

They'll never make all knights rare choices. Hell, even the Empire has core and special knights, not rare. Oh and <cough> Black Knights <cough>

The Blessing of the Lady may change, but I doubt it. If it changes at all, my money is it'll be based on the armor save modifier.. i.e. S4 Armor Piercing would trigger the 5+ Version with a -2 to your save, etc.

I also doubt PK will be "less ridiculous". I don't think they're all that and a bag of chips now. They can't negate ranks, can't get rank bonuses, can't use the lance formation, etc. They're too good as warmachine hunters, but not enough so to make them able to dominate even halfway decent R&F. A big enough unit of goblins has a better than even chance of breaking them- even on the PK charge.

The whole army isn't magical now... only those heroes/lords with magical weapons and/or those models with the Grail Vow.... so a hero/lord with the grail vow and a non-magical weapon, and grail knights. QK, KOR, KE, etc. are not making magical attacks.

But its great that you think ripping the heart out of the flavor, and fluff of an army is fair and balanced. I guess we'll see you calling for all skeletons, ghouls, and zombies- including the mounted ones in a vampire army to be a rare choice?

Brets don't have the "wedge" lance formation anymore, haven't for an entire edition. However, only the first two ranks both negates the purpose of the lance formation, and the chance someone will be moronic enough to run a big enough block of knights to step on their own bits and pieces. Anyone dumb enough to run 12 knights for 2 attacks on the charge deserves to have a flank that long. All you have to do is flank charge the last model in the rear rank, and that entire unit is done for.

As for the Banner of the Lady... I doubt that's going anywhere. Its been basically the same since time began for the Brets, and truth be told can even be replaced with better for cheaper in all but the most situational events.

I have to say Zombie, I find it disappointing that you seem to want so many changes to the Bret list that you either didn't have a problem with in the VC list, or that you would have issues with if the same theory were applied to the VC list.

As for changes I'd like to see?

A boost to peasantry. drop the Points per model cost of M@A and Peasant Bowmen both by a point, or preferably two, give them both (and the Grail Reliquae) at the very least standard "Men" statlines... i.e. WS/BS3, Ld 7 etc. I think the WS change almost has to be automatic. Beoynd that if the points per model don't go down, I think they have to give some neat toys to the M@A especially- upgrade options that can make them a scary unit to approach like goblins with fanatics (Not Peasants using the fanatic mechanic, but something that makes you think twice about charging them... man catchers, pikes, etc)

If they make Peasants better I'd also be in favor of a 1+ requirement to Peasantry, and a 1+ to the core knights. I'd prefer that you have to take at least 1 unit of either Peasant Bowmen or Men At Arms, and either 1 unit of Knights of the Realm or 1 unit of Knights Errant.

I'd like to see the Bret characters increased on par with what they did to VC vampiric powers and dwarven runics. Have the Virtues section reworked to provide 50/100 points of mechanics upgrades... i.e. bonuses for peasants using their leadership, bonuses to combat (especially challenges), in addition to their 50/100 points of magical equipment. Additionally I'd like to see a removal of a lot of the restrictions to the current virtues... if they're going to let VC do the auto-hit generating more hits combo, Brets (which basically have the same combo but its not currently legal for two reasons- points, and a magic weapon restriction) should be able to counter with the same thing. But limiting Bret characters to 50/100 points total while providing other characters with 50/100 points each of both really hamstrings one of the core pieces of the Bret list and flavor... that being my general, your general... center of the battlefield in a challenge for all the marbles baby.

A) Brett that was all just a joke....just a little sarcasm because the most veteran gamer in our group plays Bretonnia, and those are all the things I find tough to deal with. I don't actually want those changes. Sorry if my attempt at humor was not clear enough.


B) They don't have the wedge....or rather....maybe it's called the Lance formation anymore? I played a game against him not more than 2 weeks ago, and when he plowed into my grave gaurd with his Grail Knights, he said that every Knight in the front rank, and on the sides of the rank got attacks......even the horses....and he had them stacked three by three, not like one, two, three. I thought something was up, but since he's been playing so long I didn't say anything.

But you said in your post they don't do that anymore? Or am I geting my formations mixed up?

Yes, that's the lance formation... in the previous army book they had two "wedge" shaped formations... one was the original lance formation that was even beefier than this one.

The other was the "Arrowhead" formation for the archers... worked like the lance formation, form a triangle, and everyone can see.

Sorry tone, especially sarcasm can easily fail to be conveyed over the internet.

3x3 is the best way to run Bret knights. 3x4 is too long of a flank. But he only gets it if they charge, and only on the turn they charge. I myself often have to kick myself and forget this trying to use it any turn they're in combat. Not because I'm trying to cheat, but because when I learn something wrong, its very difficult for me to relearn it right.

As for your list of things you find difficult to deal with: I'll copy your post and put it in the one on dealing with Brets and break it down for you on how to solve it.

You are a gentleman and a scholar on taking names with Bretonnia

Hi Brett,

Are you convinced about this...

"3x3 is the best way to run Bret knights"

A GW manager I used to speak to now and then reckons that taking units of 6 knights is the way to go. He didn't specify against which opponents so I assume he was taking about all comers. I know he was referringt to 2000pt games.

I know when I played with the Bretonnians I ran the Knights 3 x 3 for a stronger punch, I usually had at tleast two sets, Then i went with 2 x 3 with Grail knights and sometimes Questing Knights. A 3 x 3 formation with a hero in it and maybe a BSB can be incredibly tough. But I no longer play them so I'll leave the good stuff to Brett.

2x3 is generally referred to as MSU Multiple Small Units. At that point you're getting 1 rank bonus for giving up 1 attack... i.e. 5 models can attack on the charge in a 2x3 lance formation.. so you pay for the one extra knight (most knight units are minimum 5) to get a rank bonus.

To be honest, I do believe 3x3 us the best way to run Bret Knights. As has been mentioned, you get extra hitting power, as you'll get 8 attacks on the charge- 1+2+1 in the front rank, and 2 for each subsequent rank- a static combat res of 2 for ranks and most likely you'll have outnumber.

Beyond that, you'll also have enough depth in your units to retain Look Out, Sir! and such. And remember one of the big things with Brets is winning on the charge... if Brets don't win on the charge probably a good 80% of their hitting power goes away. After the charge the back ranks don't get to fight, lances cease to be effective.

That's a convincing argument and you're right the charge is all important so I guess it might justify the formation of 3x3 all oon it's own.

Yes, running MSU you're looking at 2 units of knights 6 each + extra command, about another knight per... so paying for 14 knights to get 12 physical knights, of which 2 static CR are wasted- one rank CR and one banner CR..

while you might get a flank charge out of this for +1 CR, and an additional 2 attacks... which will come out to on average +1Cr

Thus paying for 14 knights to get 12 instead of paying for 9 to get 9 and have the static CR be a wash...

What it DOES do is make it possible to get at least one flank charge giving you +1CR and negating their rank bonus.... IF they have one. And at that point I'd run a 9 unit block, and a 5 unit block with no command (except the free champion)as a quasi-detachment(ignoring the Lance formation) paying for 14 knights, getting all the static CR already, Plus negating ranks, and getting 2 more attacks than a pair of 2x3 units for the same cost.

Brett, I'm pleased I don't have to battle you ! You're planning sounds masterful.

I like to win the occassional battle

Actually this is Theoryhammer which I differentiate from planning. When I actually play I don't tend to plan as much, I do most of my "planning" during list contstruction. A little during setup, but after that I get very reactionary.. what develops, how can it hurt/help me etc. Of course my early planning- setup, list construction and so forth is done with reactionary action in mind.