Where are all you guys ? There must be some Bretonnian Knights out there. Especially as Brets are currently one of the best performing armys in tournaments.

Here's a question. Is a Trebuchet worth the wood it's made out of for a brets army. I mean, what's the point in taking it ? (I guess it might be ok for hitting a slann mage priest or an anvil of doom or for targetting a specific enemy war machine but surely it's too expensive (including the cost of a unit left back at base to protect it ?)

Personally, I don't think I would ever bother using one. Give me more Grail Knights !

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Trebuchet is only acceptable to take in games over 2000 points. that one rare slot is way too valuable for your Grail Knights. Pus if you dont take Grail Knights then you cant take your best underrated unit, the Grail Reliquae. My Grail Reliquae with 9 battle pilgrilm held up a massive 20 or more unit of Temple Guard and Second Generation Slaan for at least 3 turns. that's over 1000 points for a 150ish point unit. Not bad in my opinion.

Trebuchet is well worth it's weight though in my opinion, it is the best stone thrower in the game, S10 where ever it hits with S5 around that point. Just dont shoot near your own guys! Sure I took out an Empire Emperors mount and left him stranded on a rock, but my Grail Knights took most of the hit!

I haven't got the army book with me right now but I assume that must mean the Grail Reliquae is unbreakable.

When I looked through the Bretonnian's rulebook I can see why you say the Grail Reliquae is the most underrated unit. Given what you say above I think I have been guilty of underrating it too.

I have zero experience of playing Brets even though I could probably make up a reasonably large force from a lot of plastic models I bought on eBay which I currently use as Empire knights. You're beginning to whet my appetite for a Bretonnia game

Arrghhhh.... too many armies, not enough time

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PS. I agree with what you've said about the Trebuchet being the best stone thrower out there (except for a grudge thrower with rune of accuracy).

I still don't think I would take the Trebuchet though, I think a Bret army is probably best of sticking to the cavalry charge unless it's a very large game like 4000+ pts

I guess it all depends on which enemy you're facing.

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I think the Trebuchet is fantastic since it's no armor saves. It's a great way to knock out anything and the S10 means chariots or other Monsterous creatures go byebye!

However, I agree it's only really useful in 2000 plus points. The Grail Relique is a fantastic item. It's not unbreakable but is stubborn on leadership 8 or 9, which is pretty fantastic for a Calvary army. I like both of those items as they provide some extra needed kick which the Brets otherwise lack (anti-artillery fire, etc.)

@Sigmar, Brets only have two rare choices, and with a 1-0 on Grail Knights your almost forced to take the Trebuchet in 2000+ points. It really shouldn't take second thought though, it's an exceptional machine.

@scurrdi, Reliquae is Ld 8 which is still awesome for a cheap Stubborn unit. If you can get them into contact with a scary enemy unit and hold them up so you can charge one or more of their flanks ohhhh man you are set.

Yup, I remember during the Nemesis crown battle for the Tower (I forget the exact name) we did the event at my store and it was myself playing High Elves at that point (mostly calvary) with a Bretonnian player. We just placed that fancy little item right next to the tower and it got tangled up a big Black Orc unit. They stood there for the whole game.

It's a fantastic unit in my opinion, and does exactly what it needs to do, hold still so the lances can poke the bad guys good!

Tizz wrote:

@Sigmar, Brets only have two rare choices, and with a 1-0 on Grail Knights your almost forced to take the Trebuchet in 2000+ points. It really shouldn't take second thought though, it's an exceptional machine. @scurrdi, Reliquae is Ld 8 which is still awesome for a cheap Stubborn unit. If you can get them into contact with a scary enemy unit and hold them up so you can charge one or more of their flanks ohhhh man you are set.

Good point about the rare unit choices Tizz.

I agree it's a great war machine but it seems to fly in the face of Bretonnian tactics to me. I always expect to see them charging across the battlefield. Also, you need to leave unit(s) behind to protect it, which seems to be an extra cost of using it in a Bret army which needs to move forward asap.

I think I would take it against other armies with a lot of artillery, just to try to hit their artillery first (to help out the pegasus knights). Against horde like armies I think I'd rely on my knights to rout them.

If I didn't know who I was facing before the game then, yes for 90pts I guess I would take one. So, you've swinged me in favour of the Trebuchet

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Yay! but only in 2000+ points. If you were to ever use it you would marvel in its glory...cept for that one time that it didnt shoot quite as far as I wanted and hit my grail knights...oops. that cannon crew got seriously lucky!

Ouch ! How many knights did you lose ?

I know a late contribution but I must make it none the less.

My friend only had about 500 pts worth of Bretonia.

I don't know the book, but he had like a group of six knights maybe, a group of some sort of milita, a group of bowmen, and a Treb.

I had 20 zombies, 20 skeles, vamp, and necro.

His treb did take out a couple of zombies, but I was always able to replace them. I kept my two units about 13 inches appart, with my Necro inbetween so he could not be targeted, and so that he can Van Hel one group to help the other. I let the Knights come to me.

He kept his bowmen in the rear to protect the treb, so they did nothing. The Knights lost in combat, so they broke and ran into the milita, causing them to break, and both units to flee off the table.

He simply conceeded after that. So point of my story is that the Treb only fired a few turns, else he risk hitting his own knights, so that was a big point sink, and his bowmen were never even close to being in range.

So I think the Treb, especially at low points, is not a good call.

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Heya Tom its Bob from the office down the hall, good to see you buddy how've ya been? Things have been okay for me, cept that I'm a zombie now...

Zombie, I agree and disagree with you. Against any other army the trebuchet would be a great addition to a low points game as it is cheaper than a unit of grail knights and provides great firepower.

The problem your friend had wasnt because the trebuchet didnt perform up to par, but because he had pretty bad tactics against an undead army. The only way Bretonnians win is by being able to charge and break a unit in one fell swoop, if you have to go into multiple rounds of combat with Bretonnian knights, your kinda screwed. Sure you still have a 2+ armor save, but you lose your Stregnth bonus and become fairly uneffective. Since you can't break undead units your friend was already at a great disadvantage.

Now, a second unit of knights charging together with the first might have been a better use of points against undead.

I agree with both Zombie and Tizz.

The biggest issue I have with nearly all of the war machines (except possibly rune encrusted grudge throwers with a Master engineer and gleamingly new repeater bolt throwers) is their unpredictability.

A trebuchect might come in handy against some opponents but, like Zombie, I don't think I would use it at all in a low points game.

Like Tizz said, your opponent really needed some more knights.

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Zombie3883 wrote:

I know a late contribution but I must make it none the less. My friend only had about 500 pts worth of Bretonia. I don't know the book, but he had like a group of six knights maybe, a group of some sort of milita, a group of bowmen, and a Treb. I had 20 zombies, 20 skeles, vamp, and necro.

Well for starters, I see an army imbalance that noone else has picked up on. 500 points is either a very very small game, or (Especially for Brets) a large warband.

Figure he's got a batallion box plus a trebuchet... 6 KOTR with full command(?) is going to run about 150 points. I don't know how much some men at arms and some bowmen are (though the batallion box comes with 16 of each) for another 150ish points. Toss in the Trebuchet at about 100. (I'm rounding to hide the points costs, something that at least used to be important to GW) and I see 400 points on the battle field.

Additionally you've got two heros to his zero. How would he have done without your vampire and necromancer on the table casting Nehek, etc?



As to the question: To Trebuchet or not to Trebuchet- Grail knights are absolutely your first choice. But as soon as you get two rare choices, take a Trebuchet. In fact, the only thing I don't like is that its only one trebuchet per slot. I'd prefer if you could take up to two per rare choice. I've been a Brett general for several years now, and with some skill in geo-guess-ometry you can be fairly accurate on the guess range.

I've plunked into the middle of big orc blocks, I've hammered the crew on a Hell Cannon. Realistically with the costs for other units, I find the points spent on a trebuchet is better spent than the points for a block of the 12 or so Men At Arms you could get.