Warhammer Fantasy Battle Reporter Forum

Rank bonus, outnumbering bonus and flanking question.

I don't know how this came about but my regular gaming buddy and I have taken to counting ranks before combat, counting the outnumber bonus after combat and counting the flank bous before combat.

It occured to me that it is possible that a unit that is flanked could destroy all of it's attackers at the end of the combat phase. If the combat contained multiple units do you still count the flank bonus for the flanking charge from the beginning of the combat phase ?

Also, should we be counting the number of ranks for (the rank bonus) at the end of the combat or at the beginning ?

I wouldn't normally ask this question - out of sheer embarrassment but I need to know (!) I'm at work and it's err.... "doing my head in" thinking I've been playing the 7th edition rules incorrectly for the past 2.5 years !

Thanks guys,
Sigmar

Rank Bonus is the rank bonus at the BEGINNING of the phase, while OUTNUMBER is counted at the END. Flank bonus is only counted at the end of each CC, IF you have at least US5.
Hope that helped!

hm, i dident now that, thenks

@ dims,

I thought that flank bonus is given at the end of the round no matter what the unit strength. You have to be greater than US5 at the end of combat to negate ranks, but get the +1 if you have at least one model.

@Sigmar

If you wipe out the flank force, there is nothing flanking you, so they dont get flank bonus.

Cheers Dims, thank stella artois I was right about the ranks and outnumbering.

Cheers Sever and Dims on the flanking rule. I just assumed that if it was a charge in the flank then you'd get the bonus irrespective of your unit size at the end of the combat res.

Yep Sever is right you count the flank bonus at the end of the round has to be US5 or it doesnt count

If you're gonna agree with Kiwi, then agree correctly mate ; Kiwi is right on the Flank Bnus: it DOES NOT matter what US it is to claim the RESOLUTION BONUS, but in order to negate rank bonus, you DO need US5. Good one Kiwi!

Now let us open the BRB (page 38, column 2, paragraphs 5 - 7)

Flank Attack
"Charging an enemy unit to the its flank or rear is lethal, as the enemy warriors helplessly mills around in confusion trying to face the unexpected attack.
If you are fighting against an enemy unit's flank, you may add +1 bonus as long as your unit has a unit strength of 5 or more after both sides have attacked. Note that you can only count +1 even if both flanks of the enemy are engaged. The bonus is only applied once, regardless of how many flanking units are involved in the combat. If both sides have flanking units the side with the most flanking units gets the bonus."

Rear Attack
"The same rules for a flank attack apply to units attacking an enemy unit in the rear, except that a rear attack gives you a +2 combat result bonus. This bonus and the flank bonus are cumulative, so if you are attacking in the side and rear you will receive a bonus of +3."

And Page 38 Column 1 paragraph 6 under Extra Rank

"The bonus is lost if the unit is fighting to it's flank or rear against an enemy unit with a unit strength of 5 or more. Note that this applies while the enemy unit in the flank/rear is in combat - if the enemy unit breaks and flees, or is reduced to a unit strength of less than 5, the unit regains it's rank bonus at the beginning of the following turn."

So it is written so shall be played.

-----

What does that mean?

OK if you are US5 and above before combat you negate rank bonus and after combat to get the bonuses to CR.

Basic scenario 2 units of 20 ranked 5x4 charge eachother. Each has the following CR
- 3 for ranks
- 1 for standard

In 2nd round a small unit of 15 charges the flank of the enemy unit of 20. It adds the following CR to the battle
- +1 for flank if it has 5 or more models left at end of combat
- +1 for outnumber assuming nothing else changes

The flanking unit will only add ranks to CR if the other friendly unit has had its rank bonus reduced below 3, i.e., it has been reduced to 15 models as ranks cannot add more than +3 to your CR. In this case CR would be
- 3 ranks (2 from forward unit, 1 from flanking unit)
- 1 standard
- 1 for flank
- 1 for outnumber (assuming you did so)

Just to resume this whole matter:
You add your rank bonus for every complete rank (5+ models) you have at the beginning of combat round
You cancel rank bonus if you fight to the flank/rear of enemy and have 5+ US at the beginning of combat round (unless the flanking unit skirmishes)
You add +1/+2 to CR if you fight to flank/rear of enemy and have 5+ US at the end of combat round
You add +1/+2 to CR if you outnumber your enemy at the end of combat round

everybody agrees?

No:
You add your rank bonus for every complete rank (5+ models) AFTER THE FIRST you have at the beginning of combat round
You cancel YOUR ENEMIES' rank bonus if you fight to the flank/rear of enemy and have 5+ US at the beginning of combat round (unless the flanking unit skirmishes)
You add +1/+2 to CR if you fight to flank/rear of enemy have 5+ US at the end of combat round
You add +1 (NOT +2) to CR if you outnumber your enemy at the end of combat round

It looks like we got there in the end, thanks guys.


I think GW are prepared to accept the confusion and misinterpretations providing people continue to buy the rulebook. Let's face it, the rules could easily be summarised into a 10 page categorised / bullet pointed list thus vastly simplifying the game for everyone.

The rest of the rules would then be examples and elaborations on the summarised bullet points.

I suppose there are good commercial reasons for them not doing this, eg. people would easily be able to download the rulesheets from the internet.

GW probably do themselves a diservice though if they think people would live with a 10 page bullet pointed list of rules rather than going for the whole rulebook. Some might but I suspect most people would prefer to own the "real deal".


PS. talking about rules... my personal bugbear are the little rules tucked away where you don't expect them.

Okay, that settls it then. Topic locked!