For anyone considering taking an Ogre Kingdom's army into battle. Opinion is greatly divided on Ogres, some people won't go anywhere near them, others love them.

Which are you and why ?

Also, do Ogres have anything other than the brute force tactic ? I think they have a few options but nobody else seems to agree

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Well, I've finally finished reading the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book and I must say that I really love them!

The Ogres have such a great background, methinks. Basing on what Ogres are like in other fantasy universes and legends of our own world, GW has expanded and created a culture centering on eating and strength. Their priests are butchers, their god is a maw that swallows everything that comes near it. They have pit fights, they have harpoon-toting hunters, they have enslaved giants! No other race has managed to do that.

Besides, Ogres look as if they weren't too hard to paint. Of course not in the quality of 'Eavy Metal models, but they seem good for a start.

That are the reasons why I want to play Ogres sometime. But there are reasons that hold me back, too.

First of all: Magic. Their magic is interesting (even when you botch!), but fielding a butcher or slaughtermaster is very expensive because you need either another character to be general (butcher) or a tyrant (slaughtermaster). Ogre magic is easily bannable while being cast, too. But it's fun and there are a some magic items that negate the infliction of wounds on your mages.

Second: Vulnerability. Although Ogres have a high toughness, most of them wear light or no armour at all and are easily cut down by enemy fire. Luckily, Ogres are also quite fast. But I think they aren't fast enough to get up close and personal against a missile-heavy army.

Third: Ogres are straightforward. There are some tactical possibilites, but their bull charge ability coupled with their vulnerability against missile fire means that most of the time the Ogres have to close the gap between them and the enemy as fast as possible. Ogres get shooters, but they have some major drawbacks too.

One thing I don't see as a big problem is the high cost of units. Each Ogre counts for at least three units not only in unit strength but also in wounds and attacks. If you break it down like this, you get three units with high strength, toughness and the ability to cause fear for a price that compares with that of an elven unit.

But! I'm not an experienced player. This is just an estimation.

Hi Sian,

I certainly agree with this point...

"Second: Vulnerability. Although Ogres have a high toughness, most of them wear light or no armour at all and are easily cut down by enemy fire."

I'd say extremely vulnerable. Having said that, when you bear in mind your cost comparison maybe it's not as big an issue as I first though.

One additional facto to consider when comparing the cost if the slight advantage the Ogre base size will afford it. Only two 25mm enemies will be able to strike against their base size whereas, in your Elven comparison, three models would be able to strike. So, Ogres ar maybe slightly less vulnerable in base-to-base combat. Also, they don't die until the full 3 wounds are inflicted so, whereas you might lose two elves that cannot strike back you would not lose any Ogres.

Hmmm.... things I hadn't thought about much before.

I know what you mean about the character of the book, it's great. I loved it too. Also, I really love Gorgers

I did a bit of analysis on the Ogre Lead Belchers (Cannon carriers !) and I came to the conclusion that they are definitely not worth taking into battle.

I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who disagrees with that.

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I'll have to take another look at the lead belchers too, mostly because if you ditch them, you lose half of your "long" range capabilities. It's just a shame to give up a tactical option...

Not that I don't trust your opinion, Sigmar. You're more experienced than I. But I like to compare things for myself and then think them through with what other people said in mind.

One important factor about Ogres that I forgot to mention: If one drops, you lose three unit strength. That means in a unit of four or less Ogres, one dead ogre might cause panic. But! In a unit of five Ogres (unit strength: 15, panic limit: 3.75) the enemy has to inflict SIX wounds to cause panic! That's nearly double of what thinling races can weather.

As for the vulnerability: When I'm bored, I actually calculate stuff sometimes I've started calculating the losses a unit of bulls would sustain against a unit of the normal wood-elven warriors (what are they called?) under ideal circumstances (ideal for the wood-elves, that is) before they could even touch the little buggers. Maybe I'll post it when it's done, but nobody should actually take what I write for a fact. It's just numbers and we all know that number-crunching doesn't win battles most of the time.

"thinling" Lol

I see you've already taken these Ogre brutes to your heart - there's no going back now

Good point about the 6 wounds and the panic test.

I think the Wood Elf warriors you ar referring to are eternal guard aren't they ? They're the only decent Wood Elf rank and file unit. Try comparing them to some High Elf units (these have a bit more punch), especially White Lions Ws 5, S4 (+2 great weapon), T3 and always strike first - note: 5+ saving throw in combat, 3+ against ranged weapons.

Or swordmasters Ws 5, S3 (+2 great weapon), T3 with 2 attacks.

They are a bit more elite than your average warriors but it will be a good test of the Ogres resilience.

I'll be interested to see the results of your Wood Elves vs Ogres analysis when you've done it.

All the best,
Sigmar

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Well, yes, I do like the Ogres very much. But I'm still not 100% sure if I want to make them my army. I don't have the money for two armies and there's still the very interesting Skaven. Both armies have great backgrounds and interesting units. Ogres are easier to paint, though, and Skaven have more tactical possibilities. I'm having such a hard time to decide that I'm reaching out for every detail that make one army more interesting than the other.

Anyway, I'm still doing the math, what with work, other hobbies, a girlfriend and some mistakes...

I'm not really testing the Ogre's melee capabilities yet - only the chance they have to weather the massive firepower that I'm going to face in my battles against my first opponents. So it's not the Eternal Guards (no bows) but Glade Guards. Their better bows are really annoying...

I'll write down the setup, though. As I said, I'm looking at ideal conditions for the elves. This will make a fine worst-case scenario.

13 Glade Guards for a total of 156 points Smallest possible number of Glade Guards would be 10, but to balance point cost with the Ogres I had to field 13
4 Ogre Bulls with light armour for a total of 152 points
The units are exactly 30'' apart Max range of longbows
No obstacles or difficult terrain between them Because I'm not daft enough to let my ogres march for an even longer time and factoring in light or hard cover would detract from the worst case
The elves are standing 2'' in a wood They could actually move & shoot without a penalty, but that wouldn't change the number of rounds the ogres needed to reach them
The elves are standing in one rank Not a wise decision for melee, but I'm trying to give them the most possible firepower before that; the fields of fire overlap as long as the target isn't closer than 5'' (and that won't happen)
The elves get the first round

Racial and unit rules that have an impact on the outcome:
Elves: Glade Guard Longbows have S4 when fired at short range
Ogres: none

Stats:
Glade Guards: BS 4 / S3 (4) / Range: 30''
Ogre Bulls: M 6 / T 4 / W 3

I'll do the math later on (kept forgetting important stuff), but my boss's already looking, so I'd better get to work.

Edit:
The math, shortened down a bit - Ogre LP loss totals
Round 1: 1.8 LP
Round 2: 3.6 LP (panic roll)
Round 3: 7.9 LP (panic roll)
Charge: 11.2 LP (panic roll)

In the end, only one ogre reaches the elves and he's barely alive. I don't think he stands a chance against them, mathematically speaking.

But luckily that's the worst case. There are ways to improve the chances of the ogres. Here's where the (hopefully) more intelligent human brain needs to lead the ogres in a way that lets them survive

This sounds like a job for a gnobblar "shield wall" to me. I'm pretty sure a gnobblar unit ahead of the Ogres would do the trick.

Also, I think Ogres are units that need close combat support, not because they're not hard hitting enough but because they need to move on more quickly than other units due to limited numbers - therefore you need support units to charge flanks to reduce enemy rank and file bonuses so you can quickly dispatch enemy units (before they gang up on you !).

I'd probably look at trying to field groups of 2 or 3 Ogre units close together. It's risky though because this will most probably leave some gaps in the battlefield which enemies might be able to exploit (especially if it allows enemy units to march through with cavalry to take your table quarters).

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Hi Sian,

I don't know if this will affect your next army choice but I was just flicking through the Games Workshop site and I noticed that you get the largest saving of all the armies if you get their battalion set. The ogres one gives a £28 saving, I reckon that's pretty good really. You do get 4 leadbelchers though and I'm not sure if you'll want them or not.

Anyway, here's the link :-

Best value for money Battalion boxed set is Ogres

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Well, I make it a point not to let money have a say in my choices. But thanks all the same ^^

Yes, from my calculations I noticed that ogres need more fleshed out tactics if they want to stand up against other armies. Just charging in and trying to bash (HUR HUR HUR) the enemy won't work out too well.

I've also studied the army books a bit more this past weekend and I think I'm set now. Which sadly means that the Ogres have to wait until I've played Skaven for a while. It wasn't an easy decision. In the end, the limited choices the Ogres have made me pick up the Skaven again. Tactics are all fine and dandy, but having so few units to pick from and the differences between the units being rather small turned me away from them.

I will play Ogres at some time, but not now. I haven't wasted the money for the book, though: My Skaven might hire some dogs of war at some point...

Well good luck with the Skaven then. I've never actually played against Skaven... ever ! I do't know anyone who has the army. A few years ago it was the number one army on the tournament circuit. I thik it's been superseded a bit now by Bretonnians, Wood Elves and Lizardmen.

If you ever do go back to Ogres...

I was reading a forum post by a player who swore by taking flee reactions all the time and counter charging. He backed up his argument well and seemed to be a tournament veteran.

I'll be seeing you in the Skaven thread then

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